Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 483

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 112

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 112

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 112

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 112

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 112

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 112

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 112

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 112

Deprecated: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in /misc/20/334/450/285/9/user/web/simairline.net/messageboards/includes/bbcode.php on line 112
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 3760: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /includes/bbcode.php:483)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 3762: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /includes/bbcode.php:483)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 3763: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /includes/bbcode.php:483)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Notice: in file /includes/functions.php on line 3764: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /includes/bbcode.php:483)
SimAirline.net - Message Boards • View topic - Pitot Heat / Anti-Ice

It is currently 25 Sep 2018, 23:29

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 16 Dec 2007, 18:08 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: 09 Jan 2005, 06:52
Posts: 3086
Location: Apex, NC
No, you don't want to run the anti-ice system on the ground. That's what de-icing equipment is for at airports. There are various types of anti-/de-ice systems installed in aircraft.

Inflatable pneumatic boots are used primarily on piston and turbo-prop aircraft. It consists of a rubber strip along the leading edge of the wing that inflates when air is pumped into it. This is considered a de-icing system since you actually need to let a little ice accumulate for it to work. It functions by inflating under a thin layer of ice, forcing the ice to crack and be blown off by the slipstream. There may or may not be a problem with running this system on the ground.

Anti-ice systems are typically either chemical or heat-based systems. Chemical systems can be used on wings, propellers, and windshields. They operate by exuding a small amount of a liquid formula which the slipstream pushes back along the wing or windshield, or centrifugal force moves it out along the prop blades. Often called a "weeping wing," it mixes with the water on the wing and lowers the water's freezing point so it does not freeze, but blows off of the wing in the slipstream. You do not want to use this on the ground since airports are typically very unhappy when this chemical leaks onto their surfaces. It also will not work to prevent ice buildup on the wings or windshield if there is no slipstream. You also do not want to use it on the windshield if it is not raining, since it can cause permanent "crazing" of the glass, decreasing your ability to see through it.

Heated anti-ice systems use either electricity (pretty much for propellers only) or engine bleed air pumped through ducts below the surface of the wing leading edges to increase the temperature of the surrounding wing surface, preventing ice from forming and melting any that may have formed. This type of system is most commonly found on airliners. Like the pitot heat, if there is no slipstream to cool the skin near the hot air ducts, it can heat up enough to provide a serious burn if you touch it, so you do not want to use this system on the ground either.

_________________
Image
VatAware | Blog | Twitter


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: 16 Dec 2007, 19:29 
Offline
Management/Moderator
User avatar

Joined: 26 Apr 2007, 21:08
Posts: 7673
Location: Warwick, England
^^ Thanks Tim! :P

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pitot Heat / Anti-Ice
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2008, 22:48 
Offline
Pilot

Joined: 27 Jan 2008, 14:44
Posts: 33
Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
RatherBFlyin is right. If you put the pitot heat on, while on the ground, the pitot tube will melt because it gets really really hot. You can only turn it on while flying because it is air-cooled.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pitot Heat / Anti-Ice
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2008, 04:57 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: 09 Jan 2005, 08:16
Posts: 3636
Location: Kalamazoo, MI
Quote:
You do not want to use this on the ground since airports are typically very unhappy when this chemical leaks onto their surfaces.


That's the only error- the SR-22 uses TKS weeping wing anti-ice. It's not approved for flight into known icing, but an escape tool if you get into it. However, if you think you'll possibly run into icing conditions, you need to have the whole wing covered. The fluid drips out pretty slowly, and we actually spray it onto the wings of the cirrus during the winter to prevent frost (which spills much more than running it on the ground).

If taking off into potential icing conditions (not a great idea anyway), you should have the TKS running before you start the takeoff roll so that a small amount builds on the leading edge of the wing. As you accelerate, this speeds up the flowback of the fuid, and you want to have the entire wing covered (even though ice generally forms at the leading edge, or stagnation point).

The TKS fluid lowers the freezing/melting point of water/ice rather substantially, so supercooled water that hits the wing won't want to freeze unless it's too cold to have supercooled droplets (in theory). This same system is approved on other aircraft, so it does work, but it is ANTI ice only. If you wait until you pick up ice, you more than likely won't get it off using the TKS.

FYI, the cirrus doesn't have a TKS quantity gauge. We have two switches for it- On/Off, and Hi/Low. At high, with a full tank, we have 30 minutes. At low, we have 1 hour. So you turn it on, and start your stopwatch. Not something you want to rely on at all.

_________________
Image
**Professional Banner Courtesy of Nick Anderson**
FAA Certified Commercial Pilot/ Flight Instructor
ASEL/AMEL/IFR


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008, 20:21 
Offline
Pilot
User avatar

Joined: 31 Jan 2008, 16:41
Posts: 131
Location: Houston, TX
detpilot wrote:
Pitot heat should be on at all times near 0C, Anti-ice only for when you are in visible moisture (clouds), and between about +5 C and -10C.

Below about -10C, it's too cold for icing (remember icing is water that hits the wing and freezes, there is no water below -10C).

Pitot heat stops the pitot tube from being blocked by ice, the pitot tube is the instrument that measures ram air flow, and determines airspeed. (ie, the harder the air goes in the hole, the faster we're going)


Careful on the temps there... those can vary... for instance.. at +10°C you can experience icing conditions in the engine thanks to how the inlet is designed... that said.. on the ERJ-145 straight out of the Operations Manual for you: (I would imagine most newer airliners function similarly as more and more systems move to automation)

(Brandon 2-15-05 pg 1)

"Airplane ice protection system is provided by heating critical ice build up areas through the use of either hot air or electrical power. The system is fully automatic and under icing conditions, activates the entire protection system (the only exception is the windshield heating system).

The hot air-heated areas are:
-Wing and horizontal stabilizer leading edges.
-Engine air inlet lips.

The electrically heated areas are:
-Windshields.
-Pitot tubes, Pitot-static tube, AOA sensors, TAT probes, ADCs and pressurization static ports.
-Lavatory water drain and water service nipples.

Two fully independent wiper systems remove rain from the windshields.

All ice protection systems provide signals to the EICAS for malfunctioning system display."



Further, on the ERJ-145 it goes on to say about the Sensor Heating System:

"The Sensor Heating System provides automatic operation for the heater elements of Pitot tubes 1 and 2, Pitot/Static 3, Pressurization System and ADS Static Ports, TAT sensors 1 and 2, and AOA vanes 1 and 2, thus providing constant temperature and ice-free operation during all flight phases.

All the sensors are electrically heated and controlled by three buttons, located on the overhead panel.

In the automatic mode, the sensor heating system operates according to three functional logics:

-Pitot 1 and 2 and Pitot/Static 3, AOA 1 and 2, ADS Static Ports 1, 2, 3 and 4, and Pressurization Static Ports 1 and 2 are heated whenever at least one engine is running (N2 above 54.6%).

-A separate logic assures Pitot/Static 3 and Pressurization System Static Port 2 heating in any flight condition.

-TAT 1 and 2 are heated provided either Engine 1 or 2 anti-icing subsystem is function or airplane is in flight (the TAT sensor normal range of operation is from -99°C to +99°C).

Heater deactivation is accomplished either when the above conditions are not met or when the associated control button is manually pressed."


In normal operations they are not deselected.. they remain in "automatic" mode.... our plane handles the heating and icing on its own.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pitot Heat / Anti-Ice
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008, 20:23 
Offline
Pilot
User avatar

Joined: 31 Jan 2008, 16:41
Posts: 131
Location: Houston, TX
BOKITO wrote:
RatherBFlyin is right. If you put the pitot heat on, while on the ground, the pitot tube will melt because it gets really really hot. You can only turn it on while flying because it is air-cooled.


See my above post... this statement is not accurate.

RatherBFlyin wrote:
Window heat (generally only for the two window panes directly in front of the captain and first officer) is typically turned on during the initial cockpit acceptance check before the first flight of the day and left on until after the last flight of the day.


At my airline the Windshield heat is turned on (all models except XR) only when:

A) In descent and No Later than the "In Range Checklist" (usually this is done when passing through 18,000'
B) When icing conditions are encountered.

Once they are turned on during flight, they remain on until parked at the gate at our destination.

(The 145XR is a special mixed bag and its windshield heat is turned on just prior to the beginning of our taxi when the "After Start" checklist is run... and remains on until parked at the gate at the destination)

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pitot Heat / Anti-Ice
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2008, 20:47 
Offline
Pilot
User avatar

Joined: 31 Jan 2008, 16:41
Posts: 131
Location: Houston, TX
One other note from the 145 Manuals:

"Icing conditions may exist whenever the Static Air Temperature (SAT) on the ground or for takeoff is 10°C or below and visible moisture in any form is present (such as clouds, fog with visibility of one mile or less, rain, snow, sleet and ice crystals).

Icing conditions may also exist when the SAT on the ground and for takeoffs is 10°C or below when operating on ramps, taxiways or runways where surface snow, ice, standing water or slush may be ingested by the engines or freeze on engines, nacelles or engine sensor probes.

The crew is responsible for monitoring icing conditions and manually activating the ice protection system if icing conditions are present and the ice detection system is not activating the ice protection system."



The ERJ-145 has 2 ice detectors on it (XR has 4)... the 2 on the nose (one on each side) actually vibrate very very fast and when ice builds on them and slows the vibration frequency to a certain value it triggers the Anti-icing systems on the plane for a minimum of 60 seconds. Once it detects ice (it detects it at as low as .5mm or .02 inches) it turns on the sensor heating to the Ice-detectors and they de-ice until the frequency is restored... it then de-energizes the heating and rapidly cools and is ready to start detecting again... the cycle goes on and on... until no more icing conditions are encountered. =) It's a pretty cool system but can be annoying when you're trying to descend and slow down and you have the system bumping up the "flight idle" values so it can have sufficient bleed air to anti-ice the wings....

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pitot Heat / Anti-Ice
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008, 03:55 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: 09 Jan 2005, 08:16
Posts: 3636
Location: Kalamazoo, MI
Thanks for the clarification Chris. I found it interesting that the ERJ's inlet lip protection is completely independent of the pneumatic system, interesting indeed. Also, contrary to the pitot/static/TAT/AOA probes,

Quote:
The Wing and Stabilizer Anti-icing Valves are inhibited from opening on the ground and at a ground speed below 25 knots to prevent structural damage caused by surface heating, except during ice detection testing. The ice detection test should not be activated for more than 15 seconds.


Quote:
If you put the pitot heat on, while on the ground, the pitot tube will melt because it gets really really hot.


Not quite. We (in the Cirrus) are supposed to have the pitot heat off for taxi, or for any period greater than 2 minutes on the ground. However, other airplanes (ERJ and I'd assume most jets, see above posts) don't have this limitation. And even in our plane, we'd just overload the heating element. NO pitot heat gets hot enough to MELT the steel pitot head, you'd just burn out the heating element- ie... no more pitot heat.

_________________
Image
**Professional Banner Courtesy of Nick Anderson**
FAA Certified Commercial Pilot/ Flight Instructor
ASEL/AMEL/IFR


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pitot Heat / Anti-Ice
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2008, 05:33 
Offline
Pilot
User avatar

Joined: 31 Jan 2008, 16:41
Posts: 131
Location: Houston, TX
detpilot wrote:
I found it interesting that the ERJ's inlet lip protection is completely independent of the pneumatic system, interesting indeed


What's crazy about it especially is that the valve (which is DC powered) is the only valve on the aircraft that is designed so that when power is lost (aircraft in ESS mode) it fails to an open position. ; )

BTW, the part you were referencing for the test is referring to the A test only... which honestly, I've done the A first flight of day ice test MAYBE 6 times ever... the standard test completed is the B test. That being said, since the A test is so rarely used, it is the one the "school house" likes to test F/O's on... hint hint hint.

As long as we're on the subject of anti-ice and icing protection.. the other crazy thing on the jet is that the actual tip of the cone for the engine is not a perfect cone.. the tip is ever so slightly curved to one side... not visible by eye from what I've noticed... the reason is that when the engine is spinning (N1 above 50%) the VERY slight asymmetric shape will not allow the formation of ice around the cone.. it slings it off before it gets big enough to create a problem.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pitot Heat / Anti-Ice
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2008, 15:43 
Offline
Pilot
User avatar

Joined: 25 Nov 2008, 15:57
Posts: 46
Location: Dunaalmas, Hungary
Well, I am new to SimAirlines. On the other hand, I have over 20 years experience in the Avionics industry (served in the RAAF for 20 years) I am surprised that most guys who fly virtual are not clear about the basic systems of flying. Maybe that is why we should have to take exams through IVAO, Vatsim or conducting exams here within the organization. Yes, the pitot heat should be turned on when the aircraft enters the runway for take off and off when the aircraft has turned on to the taxi way.
The pitot head that supplies ram air pressure to the ASI, mach meter and various instrumentation of the auto pilot system is very susceptible to blockage through freezing at any altitudes, but especially at above 10000ft. Therefore, the heat has to be turned on prior to take off. (by the way, on some FS aircraft, if it is not turned on, you will find that at some stage your ASI will become inoperable and will drop down to zero until the heater is switched on)
Tyhat is my two bobs' worth.... :D
Regards to all and safe landings.
Nick


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pitot Heat / Anti-Ice
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2008, 15:54 
Offline
Management/Moderator
User avatar

Joined: 03 Jan 2007, 16:40
Posts: 2861
Location: Bayamon, Puerto Rico
Nick Cserny wrote:
Maybe that is why we should have to take exams through IVAO, Vatsim or conducting exams here within the organization.


Let's not forget that this is a hobby and that most people don't know much about how an airplane works. If tests are placed, we would risk losing many members since only those who have real life experience with airplanes are the ones who may pass (and those who are FS fans and know their stuff). If a test is placed here, I'm as good as out. I don't know much about an airplane, let alone some terms here. One of the things that distinguishes SimAirline.net is the fact that there are no restrictions here to become a member: no hours to fly a certain aircraft, no ranks, no tests. Your only duty, make sure you fly at least one flights per month. That's it.

_________________
Image
^^Courtesy of Fraser Jeffery. To SimAirline.net. It's been a blast!^^
*Click on the banner for the latest on Viewpoint, the official SimAirline.net blog*


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pitot Heat / Anti-Ice
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2008, 16:32 
Offline
Pilot
User avatar

Joined: 25 Nov 2008, 15:57
Posts: 46
Location: Dunaalmas, Hungary
Dennis, you are right, but at the same time, if someone is interested, he can learn, even to scratch the surface of aviation. We are all in here to enjoy ourselves, but at the same time try to do as real as we can do within the scope of the simulator.
Best regards,
Nick


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pitot Heat / Anti-Ice
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2008, 18:25 
Offline
Pilot
User avatar

Joined: 11 Mar 2005, 23:27
Posts: 5845
Location: Pittsburgh
And take the fun out of flying for a VA in the process...

One of the key features we have is something we actually don't have - tests. Some VA's require you to mess with fuel loads and stuff (like my other VA), and it's meh, but I'd rather not deal with it and just go with my guesstimates.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pitot Heat / Anti-Ice
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2008, 06:29 
Offline
Management
User avatar

Joined: 05 Oct 2008, 05:26
Posts: 1403
Location: Long Island, New York
Nick Cserny wrote:
Maybe that is why we should have to take exams through IVAO, Vatsim or conducting exams here within the organization.

It's a very complicated procedure that almost no pilot does exactly right. Really, it depends on your aircraft or airline. Regarding the SR-20 and 22, listen to Brandon. He's my second instructor (well, in the forum at least :wink: ).

As for inspections, why? It's not like our lives our in danger by sitting at a computer. Besides, not too many people know how to properly operate an aircraft, unless they're real pilots. As for me, I'm learning on the Cirrus SR-20 and -22s. Even that's hard for a young kid like me. As for when I'm flying the 747 in FS, thank g-d I don't have passengers behind me. I'm not saying I'm bad, but I'm still learning.

Even real world pilots don't know everything about their aircraft. For instance, every pilot has a general understanding of aerodynamics and how it connects to their plane, but very few 747 pilots will be able to tell you the exact science of aerodynamics.

If anyone has the Cathay Pacific 744 ITTV video, Captain Don Grange gives you a general statement on how aircrafts benefit from winglets. He doesn't tell you how it puts stress on the wing and the long term disadvantages and advantages other than fuel savings (even though there aren't too many more.

Let's face it Nick, we're not all qualifying for the air force (but Ory might have wanted to since he had to serve in Israel's army, I'm not sure if he did). At least 50% (if not more) of our pilots, including me, would fail if we had to take an IVAO exam in a large aircraft. Some of us can't even read charts such as approach plates and SIDs. That's why we have support forums like these, so we can help one another. Just let the management do what they need to do and make there own decisions. As for the forums, just make simple suggestions. Right now, the staff at simairline.net is doing a hell of a job.

_________________
Image
Thanks Fraser Jeffery for the beautiful avatar!
Check out the latest SimAirline.net news in Viewpoint


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pitot Heat / Anti-Ice
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2008, 09:35 
Offline
Pilot
User avatar

Joined: 25 Nov 2008, 15:57
Posts: 46
Location: Dunaalmas, Hungary
Hi David,

Well, you are right, but when I made the comment on the pitot tube, I made it to help people understand that there are misconceptions on a lot of things when flying simulators. Lets face it, what are simulators for? They are to teach a person to fly a particular plane without having the apprehension of danger, cheaper than the real thing, but still give the impression of being in a real plane or as close as to it. OK, the FS2004 is classed as a Microsoft Game, but is it a game 100%? The people,who are writing the programs are trying to do their utmost to make them as close as possible to the actual aircraft. So I think it is not a game that you would use ...say in an arcade. The simulator, that we use in VA is just a cheaper version that the "big boys" use in the airline industry. Of course there are some avid simulator fliers who go beyond of us normal enthusiasts and spend a fortune to tune their system up to such an extent which would be beyond some people's means. (like multi screens, super duper computers, very elaborate yokes, rudder pedals etc. The sky is the limit.) But that is an other subject. :)
I have a friend, who has been VA flying for a few years now and has the so called "bug" to fly so much, that he has started to learn to fly in the Real World, and you know what he said? He said that through flying the sim he has lost all apprehension of flying and has managed to fly his first solo in minimum time. Since then he is going for his CPL now.
I say there are two types of VA flying, the ones that just fly without any forethought and planning and the other that puts a bit more effort into it, prepare a proper flight plan and follow the rules of the air. :D
Safe landings and blue skies.....
Nick


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pitot Heat / Anti-Ice
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2008, 20:28 
Offline
Management
User avatar

Joined: 05 Oct 2008, 05:26
Posts: 1403
Location: Long Island, New York
It's like you took the words out of my mouth. :D Well said indeed. I try my best to be real. But I can hardly fly at all with the computer I have, and I'm not even allowed to take lessons in a real plane at my local airport. So what do I do? I go to my friend's house, I load up a cirrus SR-22 or a Cessna 172, take a VFR flight to where I please, use charts, and communicate using squawk box on VATSIM. It's the closest you can get without actually flying in a multi-million dollar simulator (which costs more than the plane itself), or taking a real bad boy for a spin. And as for what you said, they invented add-ons for a reason :) . You just have to realize where everybody is coming from.

As for pitot heat in large jets, I do most of my flying in very cold weather. So I'll leave my anti-ice, window, and pitot heat on nonstop. It's different in small aircraft though, such as the cirrus. As far as I know in the cirrus, you try to leave it off until takeoff, and then you turn it off about a minute after you land.

_________________
Image
Thanks Fraser Jeffery for the beautiful avatar!
Check out the latest SimAirline.net news in Viewpoint


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pitot Heat / Anti-Ice
PostPosted: 29 Nov 2008, 09:15 
Offline
Pilot
User avatar

Joined: 25 Nov 2008, 15:57
Posts: 46
Location: Dunaalmas, Hungary
Looks like, David that you and I are on the same wavelength. :D


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pitot Heat / Anti-Ice
PostPosted: 29 Nov 2008, 15:49 
Offline
Pilot
User avatar

Joined: 31 Jan 2008, 16:41
Posts: 131
Location: Houston, TX
DMM200 wrote:
Some of us can't even read charts such as approach plates and SIDs.



As an aside from the topic of this thread... would the topic you brought up be something people are interested here to learn more about???

DMM200 wrote:
As for pitot heat in large jets, I do most of my flying in very cold weather. So I'll leave my anti-ice, window, and pitot heat on nonstop. It's different in small aircraft though, such as the cirrus. As far as I know in the cirrus, you try to leave it off until takeoff, and then you turn it off about a minute after you land.


As for the airliners... at least my aircraft... its all automatically handled.. but, that said, anti-ice is NOT something that is on at take-off... that's the purpose of both the de-icing and the anti-icing fluid applications (they are 2 seperate things!!!) You have to realize (with the exception of the new 787) almost all the airline jets I know of are all anti-iced with the pneumatic system providing hot bleed air from the engines... That said, the one surefire time you Don't want to be giving away the bleed air is on a take-off... we keep it all nice and bundled up as much as possible for the "what-if" scenario of a V1 engine loss... (on the 145, taking off in icing conditions, we are configured differently than a non-icing take off)... we have the bleeds open, but the packs off, the engine ice-detection knob is in the engine position (to force a relatively very small portion of bleed air to be used to deice the engine inlets) and then the rest is basically in an armed state to come on when the aircraft detects it is in actual icing conditions... When we choose to take off in this configuration (which we use only when icing conditions are expected to be encountered within a very short time of takeoff) then we will take a substantial weight penalty depending on the departing airport... as we have basically opted to derate our engines. Certain high-altitude airports such as Colorado Springs can see as much as a 3000 lb reduction in available lifting payload ability between a normal take-off and an icing configured take-off. (at 189 lbs per passenger at winter weights, it comes to about 16 people less we can possibly take)

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pitot Heat / Anti-Ice
PostPosted: 30 Nov 2008, 14:38 
Offline
Pilot
User avatar

Joined: 25 Nov 2008, 15:57
Posts: 46
Location: Dunaalmas, Hungary
G'day Chris,

We are barking up the wrong tree.....what we were talking about is pitot heat and not de-icing of leading edges. Pitot heat is a 28VDC system and has nothing to do with bleed air. The reason they are turned on right before take off is, moisture within the head itself that can be from rain or condensation from the outside. Since temperature drops 2 degrees C per 1000 feet of altitude, it would not take much for the moisture to freeze after take off.
In response to someone's comment that the head would melt if overheated, it is incorrect, as it is only a 28V system and the heating element would burn out or the circuit breaker would "pop" well before the pitot head would reach the temperature of melting. :)
Blue skies....
Nick C


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pitot Heat / Anti-Ice
PostPosted: 30 Nov 2008, 14:54 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: 09 Jan 2005, 06:52
Posts: 3086
Location: Apex, NC
That is correct. The pitot tube would not get hot enough to melt. However, it can get hot enough to give you a rather nasty burn if you touch it carelessly with the pitot heat turned on.

_________________
Image
VatAware | Blog | Twitter


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group