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SimAirline.net - Message Boards • View topic - Visibility

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 Post subject: Visibility
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2008, 04:17 
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So...what's the lowest visibility that a plane can take off in or allowed to take off in?

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 Post subject: Re: Visibility
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2008, 04:23 
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Depends on the aircraft, I don't know where you could get that data but I'd be interested to see it.

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 Post subject: Re: Visibility
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2008, 04:30 
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well the reason im asking because i've been in a 3 hour delay in Sydney due to the weather and i've got a 1/8 of a mile visibility with moderate rain fall and it hasn't cleared a bit so....sitting in the a340 as usual...

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 Post subject: Re: Visibility
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2008, 04:48 
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I've taken off in Melbourne in 1/8 mile with light rain. That was a tough taxi :shock:

If I remember correctly, somebody posted a Singapore 744 landing during that time of really bad visibility last summer of two summers ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Visibility
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2008, 05:16 
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Grr...flight cancelled :evil: :evil: :evil:

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 Post subject: Re: Visibility
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2008, 05:46 
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Real life or MSFS?

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 Post subject: Re: Visibility
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2008, 12:02 
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FS. I highly doubt they'd cancel the whole flight for visibility. Maybe delay it but not canel.

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 Post subject: Re: Visibility
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2008, 15:33 
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Then why is it in Aviation Discussion? I thought this was for real life and nothing related to FS?

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 Post subject: Re: Visibility
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2008, 15:34 
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Point taken, it would be better off in Training.

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 Post subject: Re: Visibility
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2008, 16:18 
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Northwestdc9 wrote:
Depends on the aircraft, I don't know where you could get that data but I'd be interested to see it.



This actually gets into the individual carriers Ops Specs approved with the FAA and recognized on an individual basis with foreign governments... It also deals with crews being trained on "reduced visibility" t/o's... and some other hoops... and then of course (as it almost always does) it falls to each individual airport and Runway having its own allowance...

We actually check what we can and cannot do by referring to our Jepp "-9" pages which are the airport diagrams... on the back (-9A) it usually has a table.. see below:
Image

You'll notice their is a section labeled "TAKE-OFF"... that box contains the data we need to see about "reduced" visibility take-offs... you can see at IAH this applies for All Runways and that it has a STD take-off visibility restriction (far right box) for a 1 & 2 engine aircraft it is 1 mile or 5000' RVR.... you can also see though that with "Adequate Visual Reference" we only need to have an RVR of 1600' or 1/4 mile.... and finally we have what is referred to as the "6, 6, 6" take off... this is where we need the TDZ (touch down zone), Mid (midway down runway), and Rollout (far end of runway) RVR all reporting at least 600'.... you can also see it has the requirement for CL & RCLM... these stand for Centerline Lights (CL) and Runway Center Line Markings (RCLM)... you can also see it has a note that if any single RVR transmisometer is out that the other two are required to be working...

take in to account that this is just a very very very basic simplified explanation... but at my airline... 600' visibility is our lowest take-off

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 Post subject: Re: Visibility
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2008, 17:02 
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Airliners (Part 121 and 135) have to use takeoff minimums, the standard minimums are 5000' RVR (Runway visibility range), or 1 mile for 1 and 2 engined aircraft, 2400' RVR or 1/2 mile for 3 or more engines, plus the airlines specific requirements (See above post).

General aviation (part 91), however, does not have to comply with any takeoff minimums. So legally, you can take off in your Cessna 172 in 0/0 conditions (We actually practice this at western, 0/0 takeoffs). It's not wise however, and my rule of thumb for GA is that I won't take off unless the visibility and ceiling will allow me to shoot an approach back into the airport and land, in case I have an emergency after takeoff.

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 Post subject: Re: Visibility
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2008, 17:05 
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By the way Chris (Harris), what constitutes "adequate visual reference" at Expressjet?

If the RVR is not reporting, and you don't have Adequate Vis. then you have to use standard minimums, but if the RVR is reporting and you have 6,6, and 6 then you're allowed to go with a 600' RVR?

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 Post subject: Re: Visibility
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2008, 17:56 
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Sorry about that posting in the wrong section...

Now correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the captain make the final decision of a go or no go?

As for yesterdays situation...yes of course this was in FS...and I taxied to the runway and when I blasted my landing lights it was just nothing I mean I could barely see the centerline lights so I said forget it not gonna risk it and just exited FS looking for a better day...which was today and I'm flying right now :D

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 Post subject: Re: Visibility
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2008, 18:06 
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detpilot wrote:
By the way Chris (Harris), what constitutes "adequate visual reference" at Expressjet?

If the RVR is not reporting, and you don't have Adequate Vis. then you have to use standard minimums, but if the RVR is reporting and you have 6,6, and 6 then you're allowed to go with a 600' RVR?


To answer your questions.... First on the basis of what constitutes adequate vis here is an excerpt right out of our FOM:

If none of the above visual aids are available, takeoff is still authorized if other runway markings or lighting provides pilots with adequate visual references to continuously identify the takeoff surface and maintain directional control (referred to as ADEQUATE VIS REF on the Jeppesen charts).



Second, as far as how our reductions go... there are 5 types of take-off minimums we can POSSIBLY use.. depending again on airport and runway etc...
1) Non-standard - (if on the -9A their aren't standard mins but HIGHER than standard say 1 1/2 miles required) than there can be NO reduction (you see higher mins usually dealing with areas having obstructions / obstacles in the departure
2) Standard - got 1 mi or 5000 RVR or better then you're good to go
3) 1/4 Mile or 1600 RVR - need HIRL or RCL or runway centerline markings
4) 1000/1000 RVR (TDZ and RO) - need RCL and 2 RVR (both are controlling)
5) the dreaded 6-6-6 takeoff - :mrgreen: need RCL and runway centerline marking and 3 RVR (all are controlling), 1 RVR may be INOP (but if all 3 are working then all three are controlling)

in addition... about RVR, if it is reported it is the controlling visibility even over the towers reported visibility...

We reduce down to 6-6-6 as necessary and if allowed but the degree of "requirements" becomes more and more stringent... IF however we use a takeoff minimum reduction (1/4, 1000, or 6-6-6) we MUST have a takeoff alternate


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Now correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the captain make the final decision of a go or no go?


Absolutely.. final decision on anything with the aircraft (during its operations) always rests with the captain... that being said... when you are up there.. you are a highly trained professional that is paid to do his/her job to the absolute best of their abilities to the specifications the company has set forth and as it is approved by the FAA.. so if the captain decides to not takeoff even though the RVRs are 7-7-8 reported and the runway is authorized to go to a 6-6-6... the captain just decided not to exercise that option... there WILL be a "carpet dance" (meeting with a chief pilot) and there will be some explaining to do as to WHY you got to that decision as PIC

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 Post subject: Re: Visibility
PostPosted: 13 Jan 2009, 03:59 
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This is a great topic, because I work with quite a few new Dispatchers, who have no aviation background or interest, and this is a job that requires aviation knowledge, ecspecially when it comes down to planning a flight safely in low visibility. I was taught the old fashion way, the PIC and the Dispatcher work hand in hand, and if the PIC is not comfortable, then we try to find a solution until he is comfortable.

I have watched Dispatchers launch from IAH to CRP and CRP is at 1/4SM, RVR below landing mins, and the flight is 20 mins long. Our trainer, states, METARS are advisory only, bull, it is a actual weather condition happening, and should be taken in account for, like the FARS state.

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 Post subject: Re: Visibility
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2009, 17:07 
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Hence why those dispatchers get VERY bad names within the pilot community. We remember all these incidences and the names get around... Thankfully at my company... the only dispatcher that is generally on everyone's hit list has now retired...

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 Post subject: Re: Visibility
PostPosted: 04 Feb 2009, 20:46 
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Lotnicze wrote:
So...what's the lowest visibility that a plane can take off in or allowed to take off in?


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 Post subject: Re: Visibility
PostPosted: 04 Feb 2009, 21:00 
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Did you have another question about visibility?

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