AF447 Rio De Janerio - Paris A330-200 missing over Atlantic

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Re: AF447 Rio De Janerio - Paris A330-200 missing over Atlantic

Post by Anuj » 09 Jun 2009, 17:52

Wow ! I hope they find the black box/CVR.
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Re: AF447 Rio De Janerio - Paris A330-200 missing over Atlantic

Post by Jacob Mobley » 11 Jun 2009, 05:23

Anuj wrote:Wow ! I hope they find the black box/CVR.
Even if they did find it, it would be too damaged by the seawater to get any information out of it. My therory is they flew too fast through that huge storm cloud, and probably windsheared into the sea.
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Re: AF447 Rio De Janerio - Paris A330-200 missing over Atlantic

Post by DMM200 » 11 Jun 2009, 06:10

Jacob Mobley wrote:
Anuj wrote:Wow ! I hope they find the black box/CVR.
Even if they did find it, it would be too damaged by the seawater to get any information out of it. My therory is they flew too fast through that huge storm cloud, and probably windsheared into the sea.
Or they could have lost the engines.
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Re: AF447 Rio De Janerio - Paris A330-200 missing over Atlantic

Post by seahawks7757 » 11 Jun 2009, 07:47

Jacob Mobley wrote:
Anuj wrote:Wow ! I hope they find the black box/CVR.
Even if they did find it, it would be too damaged by the seawater to get any information out of it. My therory is they flew too fast through that huge storm cloud, and probably windsheared into the sea.

I haave to say I totally disagree with you on this one. The boxes are designed for things like this. I belive it is almost impossible to destroy it even if you tryed.
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Re: AF447 Rio De Janerio - Paris A330-200 missing over Atlantic

Post by FJ flyer » 11 Jun 2009, 10:26

seahawks7757 wrote:
Jacob Mobley wrote:
Anuj wrote:Wow ! I hope they find the black box/CVR.
Even if they did find it, it would be too damaged by the seawater to get any information out of it. My therory is they flew too fast through that huge storm cloud, and probably windsheared into the sea.

I haave to say I totally disagree with you on this one. The boxes are designed for things like this. I belive it is almost impossible to destroy it even if you tryed.
Agreed, I believe it's quite rare that you'd find a Black box that you can't get data out of. Think of South African Airways Flight 295 (Which is in some ways similar to this one), that blac box stayed underwater for ~1 year.
There's also the Air NZ/XL Airways A320 crash, that Black Box was in quite bad shape but they still maged to get some pretty decent data out of it.
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Re: AF447 Rio De Janerio - Paris A330-200 missing over Atlantic

Post by Dennis » 11 Jun 2009, 12:59

Black boxes are meant to be secure so they can withstand scenarios like this one. However, I did hear on the news that the black box may never be found. Unlike TWA 800 and other flights like these where the planes crashed while they were still on the continental shelf, AF 447 crashed beyond the continental shelf, its black box is literally sitting at the bottom of the ocean floor (way lower than the continental shelf floor). As such, the black box has enough power for 21 days of sonar signal before it literally vanishes. That's why a sub is going in their direction. While fuselage is easier to find, black boxes are smaller and lighter. A strong current that grabs it will sweep it from the wreckage.

While the black box MAY be found, it is unlikely any time soon. It may take a few more weeks, maybe months to find it IF they do.
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Re: AF447 Rio De Janerio - Paris A330-200 missing over Atlantic

Post by Carlo » 11 Jun 2009, 15:01

Isn't the maximum depth a blackbox is designed to withstand, 20,000ft? And isn't the location of the wreckage 21,000ft? :?

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Re: AF447 Rio De Janerio - Paris A330-200 missing over Atlantic

Post by FJ flyer » 11 Jun 2009, 20:11

Carlo wrote:Isn't the maximum depth a blackbox is designed to withstand, 20,000ft? And isn't the location of the wreckage 21,000ft? :?
How can they tell at which depth the wreckage is without finding it?
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Re: AF447 Rio De Janerio - Paris A330-200 missing over Atlantic

Post by DMM200 » 11 Jun 2009, 21:25

FJ flyer wrote:
Carlo wrote:Isn't the maximum depth a blackbox is designed to withstand, 20,000ft? And isn't the location of the wreckage 21,000ft? :?
How can they tell at which depth the wreckage is without finding it?
Several ways. There's sonar, for example, and of course oceanographers have mapped every body of water on earth, including underwater terrain. If I am not mistaking, I believe the FDR and CVR are in close proximity with the Mid Atlantic Ridge.

Anyway, point taken, the signal that the black boxes send out is mapped/matched up on an underwater physical map.
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Re: AF447 Rio De Janerio - Paris A330-200 missing over Atlantic

Post by Carlo » 11 Jun 2009, 22:50

FJ flyer wrote:
Carlo wrote:Isn't the maximum depth a blackbox is designed to withstand, 20,000ft? And isn't the location of the wreckage 21,000ft? :?
How can they tell at which depth the wreckage is without finding it?
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Re: AF447 Rio De Janerio - Paris A330-200 missing over Atlantic

Post by Jacob Mobley » 12 Jun 2009, 00:01

Well, the problem is now there saying they can't find it because it's trapped in the twisted metal wreck that is the fuselage. They've also got a French sub scanning the water for the black box.
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Re: AF447 Rio De Janerio - Paris A330-200 missing over Atlantic

Post by Dennis » 12 Jun 2009, 01:10

That isn't a problem. As I mentioned above, the black box is supposed to send out sonar signals so it can be detected. If the box is within the wreck (which may be possible), all they need to do is:
Get the black box and leave the wreck for later
---or---
Salvage the wreck completely at the same time with the black box.

At any rate, the black box will be the first piece to be examined.
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Re: AF447 Rio De Janerio - Paris A330-200 missing over Atlantic

Post by Jacob Mobley » 12 Jun 2009, 02:29

How are they going to retrieve just the black box? They're not going to send a diver team down, and sure as heck not going to put a two man sub into something like that.
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Re: AF447 Rio De Janerio - Paris A330-200 missing over Atlantic

Post by Dennis » 12 Jun 2009, 03:01

There are actually little robot submersibles that can grab the box. That didn't stop divers from slicing a piece from the hull of Titanic and bringing it to New York (all while on the subs, of course), and the depth of Titanic's shipwreck is more or less the same of where this Air France wreck might be.
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Re: AF447 Rio De Janerio - Paris A330-200 missing over Atlantic

Post by DMM200 » 12 Jun 2009, 03:32

Dennis wrote:There are actually little robot submersibles that can grab the box. That didn't stop divers from slicing a piece from the hull of Titanic and bringing it to New York (all while on the subs, of course), and the depth of Titanic's shipwreck is more or less the same of where this Air France wreck might be.
It is as complex as retrieving the Titanic's wreck, but the AF jet rescue has to battle underwater terrain, unlike the Titanic wreck.
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Re: AF447 Rio De Janerio - Paris A330-200 missing over Atlantic

Post by FJ flyer » 12 Jun 2009, 05:03

Carlo wrote:
FJ flyer wrote:
Carlo wrote:Isn't the maximum depth a blackbox is designed to withstand, 20,000ft? And isn't the location of the wreckage 21,000ft? :?
How can they tell at which depth the wreckage is without finding it?
If you drop a coin into your bath, does it float?
But have they actually found the accurate depth yet? Or is it just estimates?
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Re: AF447 Rio De Janerio - Paris A330-200 missing over Atlantic

Post by Jacob Mobley » 12 Jun 2009, 05:16

I don't think that is a real depth. Probably looked at surveys that were taken in that area, and made a guess.
DMM200 wrote:
Dennis wrote:There are actually little robot submersibles that can grab the box. That didn't stop divers from slicing a piece from the hull of Titanic and bringing it to New York (all while on the subs, of course), and the depth of Titanic's shipwreck is more or less the same of where this Air France wreck might be.
It is as complex as retrieving the Titanic's wreck, but the AF jet rescue has to battle underwater terrain, unlike the Titanic wreck.
Yeah, the titanic was 20,000 feet down on a flat sandy surface. It sounds to me like it crashed and hit some kind of underwater mountain or something. (I don't know really anything about marine stuff, just going off of the news sites :D .
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Re: AF447 Rio De Janerio - Paris A330-200 missing over Atlantic

Post by NWADC9 » 12 Jun 2009, 05:19

Carlo wrote:
FJ flyer wrote:
Carlo wrote:Isn't the maximum depth a blackbox is designed to withstand, 20,000ft? And isn't the location of the wreckage 21,000ft? :?
How can they tell at which depth the wreckage is without finding it?
If you drop a coin into your bath, does it float?
Now drop a sheet of foil.
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Re: AF447 Rio De Janerio - Paris A330-200 missing over Atlantic

Post by Anuj » 12 Jun 2009, 10:31

FJ flyer wrote:
Carlo wrote:Isn't the maximum depth a blackbox is designed to withstand, 20,000ft? And isn't the location of the wreckage 21,000ft? :?
How can they tell at which depth the wreckage is without finding it?
By a SONAR. The SONAR sends out an ultrasonic signal underwater which bounces back to the vessel it was sent from after it hits something big (Wreckage or Sea floor). They record the time it takes for the signal to come back after hitting the solid body. After that, they measure the speed of sound in that water and calculate the depth with this simple formula :

2D=VxT i.e. D=VxT/2

where V = speed of sound in water ; T = time recorded for the ultrasonic signal to come back and D = Distance that ultrasonic signal traveled (i.e. the depth)

Example: A ship sends out ultrasound that returns from the seabed and is detected after 3.42 s. If the speed of ultrasound through seawater is 1531 m/s, what is the distance of the seabed from the ship?

A) Time between transmission and detection, t = 3.42 s
Speed of ultrasound in sea water, v = 1531 m/s
Distance travelled by the ultrasound = 2 × depth of the sea = 2d, where d is the depth of the sea.
2d = speed of sound × time = 1531 m/s × 3.42 s = 5236 m
d = 5236 m/2 = 2618 m.
Thus, the distance of the seabed from the ship is 2618 m or 2.62 km.

Just wanted to share, learned about this a couple of months back in school. :)
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Re: AF447 Rio De Janerio - Paris A330-200 missing over Atlantic

Post by FJ flyer » 12 Jun 2009, 11:30

Anuj wrote:
FJ flyer wrote:
Carlo wrote:Isn't the maximum depth a blackbox is designed to withstand, 20,000ft? And isn't the location of the wreckage 21,000ft? :?
How can they tell at which depth the wreckage is without finding it?
By a SONAR. The SONAR sends out an ultrasonic signal underwater which bounces back to the vessel it was sent from after it hits something big (Wreckage or Sea floor). They record the time it takes for the signal to come back after hitting the solid body. After that, they measure the speed of sound in that water and calculate the depth with this simple formula :

2D=VxT i.e. D=VxT/2

where V = speed of sound in water ; T = time recorded for the ultrasonic signal to come back and D = Distance that ultrasonic signal traveled (i.e. the depth)

Example: A ship sends out ultrasound that returns from the seabed and is detected after 3.42 s. If the speed of ultrasound through seawater is 1531 m/s, what is the distance of the seabed from the ship?

A) Time between transmission and detection, t = 3.42 s
Speed of ultrasound in sea water, v = 1531 m/s
Distance travelled by the ultrasound = 2 × depth of the sea = 2d, where d is the depth of the sea.
2d = speed of sound × time = 1531 m/s × 3.42 s = 5236 m
d = 5236 m/2 = 2618 m.
Thus, the distance of the seabed from the ship is 2618 m or 2.62 km.

Just wanted to share, learned about this a couple of months back in school. :)
Yes, I know all that. I'm not sure if any of you understood my question... (It's probably my fault for not being clear enough)
What I was meaning to ask is have they used sonar or any other equipment to find out the depth? If not, then how can anyone know what depth of the wreckage?
Which was in response to this:
Carlo wrote:Isn't the maximum depth a blackbox is designed to withstand, 20,000ft? And isn't the location of the wreckage 21,000ft? :?
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